Carrie Grogan, Clare Miller and Pamela Rich: May 22, 2025 Transcript
Rachel Jones/NPF (00:00:00):
In this next session of the 2025 covering workplace mental health training, we’ll hear from experts in the corporate mental health space. Our three panelists will help us imagine what an organizational strategy for supporting workplace wellbeing might look like, and they’ll also provide some guidance on developing stories. First, our session moderator is Claire Miller. After a 25 plus year career focused on working with employers to address mental health, Claire recently started the workplace mental health consultancy to help employers leverage wellbeing to drive business results. Claire is joined by Pamela Rich, a vice president at the business group on Health Pamela leads initiatives, including the Wellbeing and Workforce Strategy Institute, the Leadership Forum on Employee Experience add the Business Groups podcast. Next, Carrie Grogan is the lead principal for client services at Mindshare Partners where she facilitates the organization’s workplace training. She also leads strategic projects to reduce stigma and increase belonging so organizations and employees can thrive. You may have all received links to the two surveys that both Mind Share partners and the business group on Health have released just this month about these topics. So we’re especially privileged to have them here to talk about that and their work. And you can read their full bios on our website@nationalpress.org. So Clare is going to be the moderator and she’s going to lead this discussion, so I’m turning it over to her.
Clare Miller/Workplace Mental Health LLC (00:01:50):
So it is great to be here with all of you. First of all, congratulations on your fellowships and thank you for your work as journalists. I think it’s more important than ever in today’s climate. That was one of the first things I said to Rachel when I connected with her is thank you for doing the work that you do. So as we said, I’m going to be moderating and I just want to give you a little sense of how we’re going to use our time together. First off, there is a fair amount of information in the appendix. I know that it can be helpful to have handy access to stats, et cetera. So there’s a bunch of things there that hopefully will be useful to you that frame out all of the different ways that mental health and work intersects, because of course, mental health impacts work and work impacts mental health. So just to get started, here’s how we’re going to spend our time talking a little bit at the highest level about what does it we even mean when we say workplace mental health. Then we’ll talk a little bit about the survey results from Mindshare, and then we’ll really get into a panel discussion. Please do feel free, we want to make this as conversational as possible. We’re going to reserve lots of time for dialogue with you, but if you have a burning question, please do feel free to jump in and ask.
(00:03:07):
And some of this might be review because this is your second day and it sounds like you’ve, I’m sure already you have an interested workplace mental health. So some of this is probably quite straightforward to you, but as you likely know, we have a global mental health crisis exacerbated by the pandemic, but we were already well on our way in terms of having a mental health crisis before that. Mental health has been the leading cause of a disability worldwide for some time. And over the years we have seen in the US more and more employers really pay attention to mental health and to use their role as purchaser for mental health benefits to really drive change in the system. And that’s one of the things that’s I think pretty unique to the US healthcare system, the role of employers in terms of shaping what it is people end up actually receiving when they go to get care.
(00:03:58):
Of course, you also likely know that mental illnesses are incredibly prevalent and very, very treatable. We still have pervasive stigma, which shows up in many different ways, including our policies, including whether or not people feel comfortable speaking out about their experience with mental health. And that also can shape people’s willingness to reach out for help and actually take advantage of the services that are available. We know too that early intervention makes such a huge difference. Obviously, number one, it alleviates suffering. If you’re able to get in early, that’s much less pain that individual might go through if the condition were to worsen. And in addition, treatment is actually more effective if you can catch it earlier and intervene earlier. So there’s really an opportunity in the mental health world to not only save money and all of that, but do the right thing and really help people avoid the point where they get to a point of having to go on medical leave or being on disability.
(00:05:02):
And I think the other real challenge that employers and many, many different and public sector payers as well have struggled with is we know a lot about mental health and we know about treatments that work, but there really hasn’t been a huge investment in terms of treatment. And because of that, a lot of quality is very uneven. It can be very difficult to get basic evidence-based care through your health insurance because the system has been very challenged with really not having enough providers that are willing to participate in networks that the employer offers. So there’s lots of opportunity for employers and for others to really align incentives so that you’re paying for quality, which is higher value, and people are getting better care and getting that better care early.
(00:05:59):
And so when we talk about workplace mental health, what do we mean? And a lot of times we think of your insurance benefits, et cetera, but it’s really all of the different ways that an employer can impact someone’s mental health. So it’s organizational practices, it’s management practices, it’s how performance management happens, it’s the culture. And when we say culture, I think a lot of folks, myself included, think about, oh, it’s the ping pong tables and it’s the comfy chairs and free food and all of that. But really, and that stuff could be important certainly, but in terms of really improving mental health culture in terms of how work is actually happening is really one of our biggest opportunities. And I think something that would make for great stories for all of you to think about tackling, because in terms of prevention, that’s the ultimate prevention in the workplace mental health world.
(00:06:52):
So it’s all of those things that can impact someone’s mental health. And work, of course is not the enemy. Work is very good for us. Work gives us structure, it gives us connection with others. Ideally, you can find meaning in your work and purpose in your work, so it can be part of your identity. And so it’s a very powerful social determinant on health, and it can be good or bad, much like all social determinants in health. And if you are working in a place where you are supported not just on the mental health side, but supported with good management practices, your relationship with your manager, all of that, your wellbeing, mental and physical, actually improves. So the headline over and over again is paying attention to mental health is not just the right thing to do, the good thing to do, but it’s also the economically sound thing to do. And so I’ve sort of covered this already, but just to kind of double down on this idea that employers play many roles, not just provision of health insurance, but also the way in which they create cultures for how work happens, et cetera, that can impact people’s mental health. And so with that, I’m going to turn it over to Carrie who’s going to talk a little bit about the survey results.
Carrie Grogan/Mindshare Partners (00:08:11):
Yeah, Clare shared the report with you all. I know it’s in the appendix, so I don’t want to go into depth about it. And I realized that you can’t even see a lot of the stats that are on here. They’re quite small. So some things that I wanted to highlight from that report. Number one, that there are payoffs when companies actually invest, right? We will sometimes have conversations with leaders of organizations who are thinking like, well, what’s my ROI? How do I see that investing in more than just our standard benefits has an impact? And it does. Our report has shown that every two years we do this report and we see the same results coming back that when employers provide support for folks and that can look really different, they want to return their health outcomes increase. Just like Claire said, their trust in their organization increases productivity, increases it all, has a positive impact, and support can look really different.
(00:09:09):
We heard that just last night in the reception that what folks needed while going through the grieving process might look a little bit different, whether it’s talking about it, whether it’s having space, that’s flexibility. We know that flexibility and autonomy in the workplace benefits everyone, but especially folks who are undergoing extreme challenges to their mental health, whether that is short-term, long-term, being able to have flexibility, a voice in your day, being able to plan out what you need in that moment, feeling supported by your colleagues, by your manager, all of these things benefit our mental health and the way that we then actually do our job. We also, given all of the changes going on, decided to include in our survey this year, feelings towards fairness and inclusion in the workplace, just to get a sentiment of how are employees feeling about this? We know overall the culture has shifted in the way that we’re talking about these terms, particularly when they’re put together and called DEI. But how do actual employees feel about inclusion, fairness, equity in the workplace and how that benefits their mental health and the way that they show up? And overwhelmingly employees, at least in America, who have taken this survey, still support these initiatives and feel like it contributes towards their experience at work, towards the way that they actually do their job, towards their willingness to stay, to be retained, and it overall supports their mental health and wellbeing. So supporting fairness, inclusion at work is a real benefit as well.
(00:10:45):
Next. Yeah, thanks. And just as Claire said, work can have a positive impact. I think a lot about, especially speaking with all of you, a dear friend of mine is a data journalist, and I’ve been talking to him about his experience working in this field and in this industry for years, and the burnout and the hardship that he has faced, increased anxiety rates of depression because of just the work that he’s doing. It’s hard to advocate in the way that you all do and to be so invested, but he gets so much meaning and purpose out of what he does. There’s no one who can do the work that he does. At least in my mind, I think he’s amazing and that drive that focus, the enjoyment that he gets from that, the colleagues, I mean, this man missed my birthday celebration because he wanted to go to a conference with his colleagues, but he gets to see them once a year and it brings him joy, and that’s what fills his cup so that he can continue to have these hard days and continue to do this really important work.
(00:11:52):
So that balance of feeling a real meaning and purpose in your day can have huge, huge outcomes. It can also lead to burnout. It can be exhausting. It can increase those challenges that you seek. And so being able to have that counterbalance right work can contribute so positively. It can give you community. Your manager can be a huge benefit. You can feel a sense of purpose and joy. It can also add to mental health challenges. And so when we invest in the way that work contributes positively, that’s how work can be that positive factor. When we provide flexibility, when we provide autonomy, when we really utilize people’s strengths in the workplace, that all positively impacts mental health and doesn’t have to be a detriment.
Clare Miller/Workplace Mental Health LLC (00:12:42):
Awesome. Yeah. Okay. Now we are going to get into the more dialogue here, but again, and actually lemme just take a beat. Does anyone have any questions they want to jump in with now? Keep going. Okay, great. So Pamela, Pamela pretending I’m doing my interview voice. So how important is it for, how important is mental health for an employer’s overall health and wellbeing strategy?
Pamela Rich/Business Group on Health (00:13:12):
Yeah, so you already started to allude to this in your introduction, Clare, but I would say that mental health has been a longstanding priority for employers for all the reasons that you mentioned. But we know from our surveys that it’s never been a priority like it is at the current moment. We serve our employer members by doing surveys throughout the year to provide them with benchmarking information. And our most recent survey on employers wellbeing strategy came out on Tuesday. And what we found from that survey is that of employers that responded, we had 131 of them, 100% said that mental health was a component of their overall wellbeing strategy. Now, just to take a step back, we know from our employer members that wellbeing strategies focus on multiple dimensions. It’s mental health, physical health, financial health. But when we asked them what their top priority was among all of those different dimensions, nearly half or 47% said that it was mental health. And 91% said that it was within the top two. So I think that that goes to illustrate just how big of a priority mental health is and how many resources employers want to put behind that particular dimension of their overall strategy.
Clare Miller/Workplace Mental Health LLC (00:14:44):
And I think it’s also important to highlight how many employers did you say responded? 131. So that is representing hundreds of thousands of lives because any given one of those employers could have 300,000, et cetera.
Pamela Rich/Business Group on Health (00:14:58):
And the survey is not just of multi-state companies, but also multinational. So it might also be helpful if I just describe Business Group on health, especially as we continue on with the conversation. So Business Group on Health is a nonprofit membership organization. We have about 440 members. Most of those members are large self-insured employers that are either multi-state or multinational companies. Typically they’re household names. The other piece of our membership are the companies that support our members in deploying their health benefits and wellbeing strategies. So examples of those companies would include health plans, consulting firms, pharmacy benefit managers, and all of the various vendor partners that an employer might contract with to deploy the program’s, benefits initiatives that they make available to employees in covered dependents.
Clare Miller/Workplace Mental Health LLC (00:15:59):
And Pamela’s being also a little humble, but the business group on Health is considered the leading employer organization that many employers are looking to. If you’re thinking of a new thing that you might want to do at an employer, your go-to first spot is to look at the business group and say, okay, what have they done? Who can I talk to? Because you can also connect to other members and have conversations about what are the best practices? How did you overcome X, Y, Z thing? So it’s a trusted source of information as well. So Carrie, I know that Mindshare has conducted this survey a few years since 2019, I think. Was there anything in the results this time around that surprised you?
Carrie Grogan/Mindshare Partners (00:16:42):
Yeah, so yes. Every two years we’ve done this survey. So we’re one of the few that has results from pre pandemic and then tracking in 20, 21, 23, and now 25. And just seeing how sentiment has changed or shifted over time. Unsurprisingly, things weighing on people’s mind, finances, politics, global events, strife, conflict, all of these things are affecting people. That was no shocker whatsoever, but now we have data to back it up. What was surprising was how many folks are feeling like they can talk about mental health that has shifted and increased. It’s the highest levels that we’ve seen folks feel. I think it’s about 50%. I’m not good at memorizing numbers. You’re so good at that. I know you’re very good. It’s in the document though. I think it’s about half of the respondents feel like they can talk about their mental health at work, and that’s huge.
(00:17:39):
That is such a huge shift in stigma reduction and feeling like they can proactively seek support. And so that growth and that shift is so huge. I think as the culture has shifted and thinking about the impact of mental health folks feeling like it’s something they can talk about, the problem is that folks don’t necessarily know then how to respond. So sure, I can talk about it, but am I going to receive the support that I want? Is my manager going to know what to do? Am I going to be penalized if I bring up my mental health at work? Still, the stigma that exists that’s unique to the workplace can still be a factor of what it means to be successful, what it means to be a top performer. If I mention that my mental health is being impacted right now or that this is really difficult, am I going to have less opportunity?
(00:18:26):
Or people will think poorly of me and my skillset and what I can achieve. And so folks might be more comfortable, but we still need to make sure that managers and organizations are providing the support that’s needed. I was also really pleased to see the sentiment around fairness and inclusion in the survey. I know that the conversation and the dialogue around that has really shifted in our country recently, and seeing that folks when they understand what that actually means and how that impacts their day to day, that there is significant support for it. I think that’s a real narrative to be moving towards that folks want to see this enacted in really impactful ways that affect their day-to-day.
Clare Miller/Workplace Mental Health LLC (00:19:11):
I think also thinking about speaking out and reducing stigma. We know from the research that the best most effective way to actually reduce stigma is for people to connect with others who have a personal experience with mental health. So there’s been lots of awareness campaigns over the years that have really helped people understand more about what mental illnesses are, right? Maybe 25 years ago, people wouldn’t have known some of the symptoms of depression and anxiety and the difference between PTSD and OCD, and there’s so much more awareness about all of that, and that’s wonderful for people understanding these conditions, but it hasn’t actually translated into stigma reduction in some ways. In some areas it potentially has even made it worse. For schizophrenia, for example, it’s actually made it worse because the more you know about that condition, there’s some things that are a little, create some fear.
(00:20:07):
And so reducing stigma is all about connecting with another person. And so for people to tell their story is hugely powerful. But as Carrie said, one of the most challenging places to do that certainly is in the workplace because your workplace is tied to your income, et cetera, et cetera. And sort of that decision of do I share my experience? When do I share it as a stigma reduction? I want to be open about who I am. And then the other sort of calculation that I think a lot of people make is, do I talk about what I’m going through because I need support because I need help. I need to figure out how to manage my work differently. This is my job. So there’s a lot of stories in there.
Pamela Rich/Business Group on Health (00:20:51):
And I would say before we leave that, just for all of you that are interested in the topic of stigma and are interested in the evidence-based practices for reducing it, Johns Hopkins in Baltimore does have a stigma lab that does some research on what a proper or evidence-based narrative is for reducing stigma, particularly around substance use disorders, where stigma is, I think still particularly prevalent.
Clare Miller/Workplace Mental Health LLC (00:21:20):
That’s great. So Pamela, let’s get into some of the initiatives that employers have in place related to mental health. So what are they doing?
Pamela Rich/Business Group on Health (00:21:27):
Yeah, so there are so many different initiatives. Where I would start is a reiteration of what you mentioned at the beginning of your introduction, which is that initiatives to address mental health in the workplace fall along the lines of policies and practices at the organizational level that are in place to support mental health. There is mental health promotion across the organization, and we’ll talk a little bit more about that I think when it comes to culture. And there’s also benefits and programs that employers put in place to address the continuum of needs. And when I say continuum of needs, I truly mean the continuum of helping employees who are well stay well, helping them achieve positive emotions and helping them thrive all the way to helping those with serious mental health or behavioral health conditions get the treatment that they need so they can live a life as well.
(00:22:32):
So really that continuum, and you’ll hear me track back to that in a lot of my comments related to the initiatives that employers have in place. So again, I’m going to draw on some of the survey findings that we released this week, but I want to be clear that this is not all encompassing of what employers have in place. So if we can go to the next slide, what you’re going to see here is some of the initiatives that employers said they have in place as a part of their wellbeing strategy. And we’ll talk a little bit about other benefits and programs in just a minute. But what you will see here on this slide is that EAP programs are ubiquitous among employers and really are probably the foundation of all employers wellbeing and mental health strategies. And I should also note, and Claire can speak to this and probably Carrie as well, that EAP programs have come a long way from when they were first introduced and are now offering a variety of programs and services that are digital first, self-service based on evidence-based care and offer employees and cover dependents, quick access to care.
(00:23:51):
I would start there with EAPs as the foundation. And then what I would point out, and I’m not going to go through all of these different data points, but what I think is striking and what I would like for all of you to take away is truly the breadth of initiatives that employers have in place to again, address the continuum of mental health needs and enable everyone in the workforce to find what they might potentially need at a given time. And that might change over the years, and it might mean that they’re using multiple benefits or programs at the same time. So this, we’ll keep this up, but I’m going to pivot very quickly to some of the other things that employers have in place that are not included on this slide. So again, this is our annual wellbeing strategy survey. We also have a healthcare strategy survey that comes out every August, and that asks much more about the plan design and specific benefits that employers have in place.
(00:24:53):
And from that last survey that we released in August, what we also see in addition to all of these initiatives here is that employers have in place things like centers of excellence for mental health and behavioral health conditions, including acute mental illnesses, eating disorders, and substance use disorders. Some employers have onsite mental health services including onsite EAP. Many are offering virtual counseling or therapy at low or no cost, and then to promote access to care. Some employers are also providing coverage out of network coverage for mental health and substance use disorders, which track backs to a comment Claire made earlier about there still being not enough providers available. And so that’s why employers do make out of network coverage available to employees. So those are again, a snapshot. They are not the be all end all list. But I want to also talk about two quick things that I think will carry through into our culture conversation that are not always talked about in the context of a mental health strategy, but I do think deserves some airtime.
(00:26:11):
And that is the first that all employers are doing to provide support to caregivers. So caregivers of course, are those who are employees who are providing unpaid caregiver support to a family member or a loved one while staying employed. And the reason I bring this up in the context of a mental health strategy is because a, employers are doing a lot, but B, there is a lot of research to show that caregivers, unpaid caregivers are at risk for mental health conditions including anxiety and depression. And there is also statistics to show that there is greater suicidal ideation and that’s active suicidal ideation among this particular group of employees. So caregiving support, I would argue is an important part of a mental health strategy. And again, here we have surveys showing all the various things that employers are doing to promote the fact that caregivers have a lot on their plate and need some extra support.
(00:27:22):
So some things that they’re doing, they have employee resource groups or ERGs for caregivers to come together. They have legal services, grief counseling, especially for those who may have lost a loved one that they were providing care for, backup child and adult care, caregiver support and advocacy. Those are often through a third party vendor that provides all things to a caregiver that they might need grief coaching for managers and staff, and then also professional services to aid in caregiving. So that’s one thing that I would mention that is not necessarily part of maybe a typical discussion, but I think is probably important to have. And then the second part, which I think we’ll probably talk on a little bit and is also here on the, I think it was here on the slide, no, it’s another slide is leave. And the role that leave and flexibility plays in a comprehensive mental strategy.
(00:28:22):
Certainly leave and flexibility is not going to solve all mental health problems, but certainly it’s an important component when you think about enabling employees to have time off to spend with loved ones and connect with family to live out their purpose. But it’s also important to provide in terms of time off to access appointments, including mental health appointments and also time for life’s harder moments. I had mentioned earlier caregiver leave, but also thinking through leaves like bereavement leave, pregnancy loss, leave, all of the things that might be really hard to make it into work and to be your best and most productive self. And employers are thinking through the continuum of types of leave that they can offer to show that mental health is important and to offer the opportunity to take time off so that employees can come back feeling like they’re able to be at work and to be a part of their teams. I know that was a lot.
Clare Miller/Workplace Mental Health LLC (00:29:27):
Just No, it was great.
Pamela Rich/Business Group on Health (00:29:29):
And we can talk more about culture later where I think leave kind of has a through line.
Michelle Marchante (00:29:34):
Hi, I’m Michelle Marchante with Miami Herald. I have a question in terms of what employers are offering. Is there any data to actually make sure that they are offering what they say and if so, if it’s in a way that’s actually accessible, it makes it easy for their employees to utilize it. And if there’s any data as to whether employees are using it, because a company could say we offer something and then employees are not accessing it for any reason.
Clare Miller/Workplace Mental Health LLC (00:30:04):
Another step. Yeah, so there is data. I think one issue is that all of these different programs and are from all different sources and there is data connected to all of those. Sometimes it’s not pulled together in a way that you can look at how everything is working together easily. So for example, if you’re a large employer in particular where you might have every single one of these amazing programs, you have an employee assistance program, you have a health plan, you have a parenting support program, elder care, backup care, you’ll be getting information from each one of those. And for the employers, they want to make sure that people are using them because they’re paying for them. So that’s one thing. As they’re constantly promoting these to make sure that people are aware of them to get that utilization there because that’s why they’re investing in them in the first place and they know what happens and they’ve put them in place because they know what happens when these types of support is not in place.
(00:31:07):
People struggle at work, there’s challenges in terms of productivity, absenteeism, et cetera. So it follows that they want people to use these programs. I think if your question is does the public get access to that data that I think you have to rely on sort of aggregate reports with companies or with organizations like Business Group on Health, et cetera. We do know with EAP, which is I think it’s like 98% of companies have an employee assistance program now they range widely in terms of what that benefit really looks like, what the quality of the care is, how many sessions you might get for free because you typically, there’s a free services. It used to be that the utilization was two, three, 5% was good. Folks are doing much better in general with getting utilization way up from that. And you’ll see numbers around that. But in terms of given one of those questions or services, it’s a different data point, how the data’s measured, what it means, et cetera. It gets complex. Super quick.
Pamela Rich/Business Group on Health (00:32:19):
Oh yeah, a lot of questions. Randy.
Randy Yohe | West Virginia Public Broadcasting (00:32:21):
Hi, I’m Randy from West Virginia Public Broadcasting. I’m curious maybe for Pamela or others, any variations or differences that you’ll see between private organizations and public and government organizations when it comes to dedicating resources to workplace mental health?
Pamela Rich/Business Group on Health (00:32:39):
Oh, that’s such a good question. And I know that our data team does cut the data across industries, but unfortunately I don’t have that information accessible to me right now. If you’re interested in that, I would say let’s follow up and see if we can get you any info on that.
Randy Yohe | West Virginia Public Broadcasting (00:32:57):
What does your gut say?
Clare Miller/Workplace Mental Health LLC (00:33:03):
Let me give you a beat. And I will say, what I should have also mentioned is in terms of we have mental health parody law. I don’t know if you all have gotten into the weeds on that. So that requires that if you are going to offer mental health services, you have to do so at parody to medical illnesses. That too is extremely complicated. The regulations, the tests to determine if you are in compliance with the law, unfortunately, or I shouldn’t say that nonpartisan. We just found out recently that there’s not going to be enforcement in the way that there was previously for mental health parity. And so that is going to be problematic for folks who don’t have this understanding that if you make sure people have access to benefits and help them get better, that there’s a business case for doing that. But has your gut spoken up yet?
Pamela Rich/Business Group on Health (00:34:00):
I think my gut would say that likely in 2025, I think there’s probably more consistency across industry and company types than we might expect in terms of the level of mental health support afforded to employees. And I think that that’s likely because employees are asking for it and it’s become so evident that there is a need, but also that we are resourced in a way that we haven’t been in terms of the amount of types of vendors and the number of offerings that are available to help across the mental health spectrum, that there’s probably something for everyone at every type of company. One other thing that I would point out to you as well is if you’re, and I don’t know if they still do this, but historically the Office of Personnel Management OPM would include their call for proposals of what they were asking for all of their health plans. And that would be in written documents in the public domain. I don’t know, I haven’t been out there recently, but there may be some information that you could potentially glean from that if it is still public.
Clare Miller/Workplace Mental Health LLC (00:35:21):
And because I’m a hundred years old, I can also add that OPM had parody before it was law, they were ahead of the game and they offered parody. And actually the business group on Health years ago, I worked at the business group on Health. The group on Health did a study to find out, okay, well when you suddenly offered a similar benefit on the mental health side, what were the results? Because the fear of course was that everyone was going to suddenly rush to get mental health care and that the costs were going to go up. And that doesn’t happen. We wish that would happen, right? Because that would mean people would be getting help. So the OPM results of their experience actually informed the federal law that then became the basis of the law. So that data, OPM was driving that innovation essentially
Aneri Pattani | KFF Health News (00:36:15):
Hi, Aneri Pattani with KFF Health News. I was really excited you brought up the parody. I recently wrote about the lawsuit and the response from the administration. I’m curious, a lot of what we’re hearing in the fellowship, what you all are talking about is how important mental health is for companies, for businesses to provide for their employees. They see it, they recognize it, but the pushback on the lawsuit against the parity regulations came from an industry organization and you see that kind of thing when there is some sort of regulation meant to increase parity access to mental health. There is often a business pushback and a sense that this is going to cost more and we don’t want to pay it. How do you reconcile those two things?
Clare Miller/Workplace Mental Health LLC (00:37:01):
Great question. Who
Carrie Grogan/Mindshare Partners (00:37:01):
Wants say? So in the advising and consulting work that we do with Mindshare Partners, we often like to start with the C-suite and have those conversations at the top because if they’re not going to support these efforts, it doesn’t really matter if from the ground up folks are asking for support. If middle managers are saying, there’s a problem here, if at the top they don’t see the benefit of investing in this work, then they will push back because ultimately the bottom line is what they’re focused on. And so being able to really make the case for how it increases productivity, the cost of folks leaving our survey shows that employees are leaving organizations that feel do not support their mental health. The number of folks that I can think of who have left jobs because they’re just flat burned out and cannot continue in either the specific job they’re doing or even the whole industry that they’ve made a shift because it’s killing them and being able to articulate that to those top leaders of financially, this impacts you because you are losing talent.
(00:38:08):
You are losing the skillset, the background and education that they have because you aren’t supporting people in the way that they need to. And so ideally, when we work with clients, we start with discovery, with learning the question that was asked earlier of are folks actually utilizing the benefits? And we often provide that data back to them of how few people actually do, whether they don’t know that the benefits are or there’s stigma around it, they feel fear that if they utilize these benefits, it will harm ’em, it will work against them, or the information that’s shared will somehow get back to their employer. And so we have to work on stigma reduction and culture change to actually encourage folks to utilize the benefits there to stick around. And being able to present that data to folks all the way at the top and convince ’em that ultimately financially this benefits them and lean into their values and how supporting this work ultimately has a significant crossover with their company values is really important.
Pamela Rich/Business Group on Health (00:39:10):
Yeah, I think said another way, one of the questions that you didn’t see from what we shared here is we ask every year if employers believe that their wellbeing strategy is part of their overall workforce strategy. So a workforce strategy is do employers have the type and makeup of a workforce that enables them to meet their business objectives? So is their wellbeing strategy a part of that workforce strategy? And year over year, we hear that, yes, it is an important piece of that. And what you did see this slide that showed that mental health was a dimension of the wellbeing strategy and one of the most important dimensions. So I think what I would offer to you is that employers are prioritizing this regardless, I think of what happens with mental health parody law. This is a major component of what they’re offering to employees to help them be well and to help the business do well.
Clare Miller/Workplace Mental Health LLC (00:40:12):
Yeah, I think the other thing I’d add is that there are lots of different voices, and so thinking of employers as a monolith is part of the challenge. I think there’s some validity to the concerns about the complexity of the regulations and implementing those. And yet, of course, without the law, a huge amount of things would not have happened. That even got us to the place of being able to advance quality and do all of these other things. So I think there’s a lot of complexity there with why one industry group might have one position in another. When I was at the business group, we found employers to testify on behalf of the business community for mental health parody, which is quite rare, really, because you always want to have that flexibility to do things exactly how you’d like them as the employer. Yeah. But here we are. So I think the good news though is that so many more employers understand the connection. I mean, look at the results like employer, we are in a new day from when mental health parody was passed in 2008. There’s just awareness about that. You can’t not pay attention to this. And now I think it’s more for employers to be putting pressure on the plans, et cetera, to be saying, why are our wait times so long? How are we going to fill these gaps in terms of what we’re buying and what we’re getting? Any other questions?
Julia Carpenter | Independent (00:41:49):
Yeah. Hi, I’m Julia Carpenter. I’m a freelance journalist. I have a question about EAPs. I see there’s a distinction here between traditional EAP and enhanced EAP. Do you mind telling me more about the difference between those and then I have a follow-up
Pamela Rich/Business Group on Health (00:42:03):
Question. Yeah, sure. So I’m going to ask Claire to also fill in any blanks because she lived this for many years. So we have split up traditional and newer EAP models based on changes that we were seeing in the EAP industry. What it started five, 10 years ago where we started to see new companies offering different models than were in existence. And the major differences is that they were digital first, that there was much more self-service. You weren’t picking up a phone asking someone for a list of providers. You were logging in and you would see a curated network of counselors, therapists, coaches who would be available as soon as potentially tomorrow, and there would be follow-up care over the digital platform. And much of the care was based on measurement based mental health care. And so those were kind of the newer EAP models that we started to see come up and some employers start to gravitate towards versus the traditional model, which again, you would call up, get someone to help you.
(00:43:20):
What we have seen over the years since these newer a p models have come on the scene is some of the more traditional EAPs have actually gravitated to what we would’ve previously considered to be the new model. So there’s probably a lot more convergence than there was a few years ago. The other thing with EAPs is that important for us to think about as well, is some employers might have a traditional what would be considered a traditional EAP plus, a newer A IP if they’re a global company based on the capabilities of the EAPs outside of the us, which I think continues to be a challenge. I don’t know if you want to say any more about that.
Clare Miller/Workplace Mental Health LLC (00:44:04):
Yeah, I guess one thing I would add is basically before these new models came up, EAPs were really, really cheap. It was like pennies. Okay. And so employers would be like, yeah, we’ll do that. Yeah. Or sometimes I think it would even come free with your medical plan and a whole, that’s a profession in and of itself. They have an association with what their professional standards are and best practices and all of that. And importantly, EAP has been focused on this intersection between work and health. I’m sorry. Yeah, work and mental health. And so that’s their expertise is thinking about the workplace versus clinician that you get through your medical plan may or may not have that expertise. So the EAP offers a huge amount of things, including direct care. They also have consultations for managers. If there’s a natural disaster or any kind of disaster or violence in the workplace, et cetera, they can come and support the company.
(00:45:10):
So it’s a whole range of services. And these newer EAPs were much more expensive than your traditional EAPs. And so it was very bold to think that anyone was going to pay real money for EAP, and there were some early adopters. And then you started seeing the data of how much more uptake you would get people using it. And they were delivering, it was expensive, but they were delivering quality care and they were measuring that care. And so you were able to make the case to keep these things in place. So now there’s sort of more money, the expectation that EAP is this free thing that’s changed, which has helped the more traditional EAPs be able to invest in being more digital first, et cetera.
(00:45:54):
And then the only other thing with these new ones is the experience of connecting to care is powerfully different. You don’t have to answer pick up the phone at all. You don’t have to tell some stranger how you’re struggling. You can go take a thing, see the pictures of the people that you might meet with as a therapist, find someone who looks like you read their bio and you feel comfortable with them, and then you can book the appointment right there. So that’s part of why the utilization is so much better because that member experience is so much better. But Carrie, I’m sorry. Anything to add? No, I
Amira Sweilem | NJ.com (00:46:25):
Think I’ll covered it.
Pamela Rich/Business Group on Health (00:46:26):
I would say that there’s probably another evolution happening, and Claire, I don’t know if you would agree with this, but it’s now some of these more enhanced models are offering curated networks for things like eating disorders or substance use disorders, so are handling higher acuity conditions through networks or other vendor partners that they are curating. So I think they’re really striving to offer everything from self-care where you can go in and watch videos literally that might help you with your mental health all the way to some of the most serious needs.
Julia Carpenter | Independent (00:47:03):
A follow up question, I’ve seen EAPs that include things like legal counseling, things like financial counseling. I wonder what are the newest offerings there? And from your perspective, each of you, I’m curious to hear about this, where would you like to see that grow or expand?
Carrie Grogan/Mindshare Partners (00:47:30):
I will say that as more and more EAPs have thought about full strategy and have thought about culture, there is still a tremendous focus on self-care.
Carrie Grogan/Mindshare Partners (00:47:42):
Is still up to employees to raise a hand. They are struggling seek support. Here is how we can help you out of whatever you’re experiencing. What we’re not doing enough of is questioning how the workplace itself is harming people. And when employers only focus on an EAP as a solution or hone in so much of their energy and resources on that, then they continue to say, employees, get yourself out of this. There’s a really powerful quote from a Harvard Business Review article that compares the canary and the coal mine and how you would never question the canary of why they’re sick. It’s the coal mine. We continue to have employees who are really struggling, and many times it is outside of the workplace. We know that it’s not always the workplace’s fault, but sometimes it is. And if you are just saying self-care your way out of this, you’re not solving for the actual problem. And so I would love to see more evolution in that regard of shifting the way we work and the culture of work. So that what it means to be high performing, what it means to be successful at work does not require burning yourself out until you are in harm’s way.
Anne Godlasky/NPF (00:49:01):
We’re running a little on time, so if there are slides you want to get to.
Clare Miller/Workplace Mental Health LLC (00:49:04):
No, no. This is all just now we’re just in the discussion part, and I know we had a couple more, but this is better too. Is there anything you want to make sure you share?
Pamela Rich/Business Group on Health (00:49:15):
Well, I think we should talk about culture a little bit because I think we’ve talked a lot about, and that was a perfect segue. We’ve talked a lot about benefits and programs, but I think that there’s a lot being done at the cultural level that is also important to talk about. And I would say that that starts at the top. So it’s a top down, bottom up approach, and then really with a lot of focus in the middle.
(00:49:39):
So the top down approach I would say is what we’re seeing is leadership. Many companies trying to garner leadership support for mental health and having leaders play an active role in mental health communication occasionally and when appropriate by sharing their own mental health stories with the employee population. When you get to the middle, that’s where we see many employers implementing manager training for mental health. And so manager training, we have, let’s see, I have a stat for you. 69% of employers offer manager training and manager training of course is training that would help a manager identify potential signs of mental health challenges or distress, and not to serve as a counselor or a coach, but to help direct them to the available programs and resources that the employer is affording to the population. So we’re seeing quite a bit. As that stat points out, we’re also seeing bottom up.
(00:50:54):
And what I mean by bottom up is we’re seeing peer training. So just like manager training, we’re also seeing peer training. So 47% of employers say they have peer training in place. And we also see mental health champions and allies who may have gone through training, but essentially are a part of the workforce and are raising their hand to say, I am here if you ever want to talk. I know about the available resources and can help you connect with them should you wish to. So I think all of those levels of support are really important because they go back to the stigma conversation where we started. If you can put all these places, these things in place, are you able to successfully convey to employees that this is a safe place for them, that they’re able to access services and to also increase awareness of services?
(00:51:54):
So I think that that’s what I would mention about culture community building is also something else that I would mention. And we’ve talked about a little bit about employee resource groups, but what I would say is that employee resource groups for mental health conditions in particular can be something that employers find success around. And it doesn’t even have to be for the mental health conditions that they might have themselves. It could be ERGs for parents that have a child with a mental health condition and having the ability to convene with other folks who are going through the same type of challenge or life situation. And to be able to feel like you have a community within your workplace that you can turn to for whatever mental health conversations you want to have in a structured or even unstructured way. So I would just mention those.
Carrie Grogan/Mindshare Partners (00:52:49):
Yeah, that’s a strategy that we’ve really employed with companies that we’ve worked with is that peer led, whether it’s champion programs or employee resource groups. And that is also an area where we’ve seen some pullback with recent regulations that employers who previously supported employee resource groups as a significant way to find community to find support, to reduce stigma now for concern or fear that they’ll lose funding are pulling support for those employee resource groups. And a lot of employees are struggling as a result.
Katie Brandt | Chicago Health Magazine (00:53:36):
Hi, I’m Katie Brandt from Chicago Health Magazine, so I’m focused on hospitals mostly. And I just want to verify, so if I’m asking a hospital if they have any of these programs in place, it would be hr, right? Is there anyone else I would check with?
Pamela Rich/Business Group on Health (00:53:54):
So it would be hr and specifically within HR you would be looking to speak with the benefits leader or the wellbeing leader, and they may work across the organization on aspects of their mental health strategy, but they will have a good overview of the various benefits that they have in place.
Clare Miller/Workplace Mental Health LLC (00:54:14):
Okay, thank you. And you might ask also, ideally I would love to talk with someone in benefits and wellbeing, but also who are the folks that are looking at organizational design and employee experience? That would be more the folks for the work side of things, like who’s doing performance management?
Katie Brandt | Chicago Health Magazine (00:54:35):
Okay, thank you.
Aneri Pattani | KFF Health News (00:54:37):
Hi, Carrie. You were talking about what we haven’t done as much yet is looking at the conditions of work and how that contributes as opposed to just offering the clinical services or the connections where the employee has to access. I’m just wondering if you can expand on that a little bit. Honestly, what would it look like specific policies or changes that employers would make if they were focusing on, Hey, it’s the coal mine kind of mentality?
Carrie Grogan/Mindshare Partners (00:55:05):
Yeah. One stat that I did remember is 49% of employees who feel like they can’t disconnect from work either after hours or while on PTO, that is significant. If half of employees feel like they’re working around the clock and not only are there not really policies discouraging that I would say we’re rewarding that behavior, that lack of work-life balance. And that is one really easy example, but I think everyone can relate to. On one hand, having flexibility work when it works for you is great, but also when that leads to a pressure and a way of working, that means now we are around the clock constantly. That’s a significant problem. I was sharing that a client of mine, I believe operates under a false sense of urgency in everything, in every request. Every email I would get from them was, we need something within an hour.
(00:56:03):
And then I’d get a call on my cell phone and a message through LinkedIn and I’m like, y’all even paying me that much for this? And that way of working is just the way that they do it. And so it leads to burnout instead being able to have policies in place on how frequently are we making requests, what is our expected? Is it a 24 hour is a reasonable response, or are you really expecting people to get back to you within the hour When we’re in a meeting, do we expect folks to multitask or is that a norm or a way of working that we can institute where you need to be focused on what it is that you’re doing. There’s ways of working, whether it’s a policy or just cultural norms that we can start to talk about and be really clear, and this is the way we get things done here. And when it’s unspoken, it continues to kind of ramp up until it burns people out.
Aneri Pattani | KFF Health News (00:56:54):
Quick follow up, just have you for the point. An example that I think you gave that all of us were nodding to where everyone is responsive at all times or can’t unplug. Is there an example of something you’ve seen be truly effective? I think sometimes there are those policies in place, maybe on paper, but people feel like if I want to stand out, if I’m in a place where we just talked about job insecurity in our previous session, if I feel like my job’s insecure, the way I make myself stand out is I’m always responsive regardless of the policy. So have you seen an example of something that truly has transformed culture somewhere?
Carrie Grogan/Mindshare Partners (00:57:30):
Yeah. Within my own organization, when within a month of me starting the CEO went on vacation and had her email access revoked so that she would not be able to access her email, the COO was the only person able to contact her if something came up and they would have check-ins, I think every three days while she was on this extended vacation so that it was the norm. She wasn’t panicking over what she was missing, but it was every three days she’d have a 30 minute check-in of like, alright, what have I missed? And she could get a phone call if there was an emergency, if something had to happen. But that was it. When she came back, there were shout outs in the channel of people who stepped in on her behalf, so people who went above and beyond and did something because she was out, but also shout outs for the people who didn’t respond immediately, and for people who also had time off and respected that time off and didn’t work. So just as much as we were rewarding the people who went above and beyond, it was also on the same hand, we also want to reward the people who recognize their boundaries and leaned into that.
Anne Godlasky/NPF (00:58:39):
Yeah. Final question to Amira.
Amira Sweilem | NJ.com (00:58:45):
Yesterday we had a speaker who, and I’m paraphrasing, but she said she had this 10 item index and when her organization did a study on where businesses really thrived in one part she had said that this is typically, that part had been just really regulated, whether that was federally or state by state. Currently in New Jersey, we have a law that is still in the State House about the right to turn off your phone. Do you think these policies need to come from the state or the feds or is it top down or do they need to be bottom up for them to really be effective?
Clare Miller/Workplace Mental Health LLC (00:59:34):
I mean, I can say that if you look at other countries like Australia has, I think probably what she’s talking about is psychosocial risk and managing that. There are countries where there are requirements that you look at all the stressors in the workplace and then you show how you’re mitigating those and the laws vary, et cetera. Some of them are voluntary, like in Canada, obviously less implementation of it because it’s voluntary. I do think in the US we are just starting with people who maybe have been working in mental health for many, many years aren’t familiar with this concept of how do we really change work, in part because we’ve been so focused on the healthcare side of it. So I think we’re in very, very early days. Gallup has amazing data on this that shows how low engagement is. And even if you put aside mental health engagement has never been this low.
(01:00:33):
And if you look at, and part of the reason for that is less than half of people know what’s expected of them at work. That’s mind boggling. And that is going to create so much conflict and overwork and all of these things. If you dunno basically what’s expected of you, and then one in three people have the resources to do their job well, that is setting you up again for burnout. So I think that those are conversations that have not really happened yet in the United States that you all could play a powerful role in enforcing happen. I think we’re,
Carrie Grogan/Mindshare Partners (01:01:04):
Oh, I’m sorry. I was just going to say briefly that I think we’re seeing now more occupational health and safety folks digging into this conversation and seeing in the same way that they’re scanning for hazards in a construction site, you also need to scan for hazards to mental health and think of that as part of the role.
Anne Godlasky/NPF (01:01:23):
And I’ll just say as a former editor, those stories, this country is doing this so much better. They do very well.
Rachel Jones/NPF (01:01:33):
And I just want to say, I’ve sat here and thought of 10 stories I’d like to do based on conversation, so this has been incredibly informative and we’d like to take this opportunity to thank Claire Miller, Pamela Rich and Carrie Grogan for joining.
